Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families podcast.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Hi, I'm Nadia Rossi and you're listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. We would like to pay respect to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors and elders, past, present and emerging from different First nations across Australia. This episode contains themes of bushfire, cyclone and flooding. If you feel this topic may bring up difficult feelings for you, perhaps give this week a miss and join us next fortnight, or you can find resources for support in our show notes. Disasters like flood, bushfire and drought are becoming more frequent across Australia and can leave lasting impact on the families and children who experience them. This episode is part of a series where we talk with families who have experienced disasters. We're going to hear how they supported themselves, their children and communities, and how they navigated the ongoing recovery process. Today we are speaking with Sania. She lives with her husband and children in northern Queensland, and as a family, they have experienced floods, cyclones and bushfires. Sania and her family know what it is like to be able to prepare for a disaster, and also what it is like to have to evacuate immediately without time to process what was going on around them. She is here today to talk about preparedness when it comes to disasters and what her and her family learned from their experiences. Welcome, Sania. It is great to speak with you today.
[00:01:36] Speaker C: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me here.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: Sania, can you tell us a bit about who makes up your family?
[00:01:42] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So there's myself and my husband and our two young daughters, a ten year old and six year old, and I also have a 23 year old son who comes and goes.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: I mentioned in our introduction that your family has experienced multiple disasters. So bushfire, cyclone and flood. How old were your children when they experienced those disasters?
[00:02:08] Speaker C: So when we were in the fires back in 2019 to 2020, our youngest was two and then just around six. And, yeah, my son at the time was nearly 20 and he was actually in the RFS volunteering as well. So on the other side of the fires. So, yeah, the girls were quite young and then. Yeah. Recent cyclone and floods this year.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Right. So how many years has that been between them?
[00:02:37] Speaker C: Four. Roughly four.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:39] Speaker C: Yeah. And around the same time. So around Christmas period, new year period, it was, yeah. Really oddly similar timing.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: During those events, were you able to stay together as a family?
[00:02:51] Speaker C: So in the fires, we were all at home until evacuated, and myself and the girls went to go to the evacuation centre, but my husband stayed home and my son was on the other side of the fires and unable to get through back down on the coast. So, yeah, we were sort of scattered, but I was with the girls.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: And how did you explain that to your girls? That you were kind of separating and dad was staying and your brother was, you know, on the other side. How do you explain that to a two year old?
[00:03:21] Speaker C: So, particularly the little one, she was just turned to Christmas day and very much daddy's and girl, like, I want to stay with dad. I want to go to work with dad. And so when we were leaving, she's like, I want to stay with dad. And it was actually the New Year's Eve, so the night before his birthday, so the girls were, like, both of them wanting to just have time at home. And it was, yeah, really odd for them to be like, well, why aren't you coming? Like, if we're in danger, why aren't you coming? Particularly my then six year old, I.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: Guess with six as well, you're starting to really see the world differently and I guess tap into what adults are feeling a bit more. So, yeah, I can completely understand and see, I have a six year old, so I can see how she would be. Yeah. Processing that and picking up on what's going on. In the recent events that you experienced, were you able to stay together that time, or has it been both? Been.
[00:04:11] Speaker C: Yeah, no, we stayed together that time. I remember my ten year old saying, oh, here we go again. And she was really organized. She pulled out a suitcase and was like, let's go. Whereas my little one was just like, what's happening here? But, yeah, knowing that we're all together, she's like, okay, bit of an adventure.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: And, yeah, I guess that's like knowing you're all together. It's that family unit in the one spot.
[00:04:35] Speaker C: And their biggest concern, actually then was like, what about the guinea pigs and the dog? We've got to get them in those moments.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Lots of information can come in and I guess in age appropriate ways as well, because your children span different age groups, how do you manage the information that they're being fed? Like, about the fires or about the. The floods and at different ages as well. Like, how do you and your husband manage what they hear?
[00:05:02] Speaker C: So at the time of the fires, I think I wasn't as aware or I felt like I was really blase and just like, it's a fire, it's all good, and we just do what we're told to do and we'll be fine. I honestly did not think it would be what happened. So I was being quite blase. So just really vague on. On talking to them, like, yeah, there's a fire coming through. We're just going to be safe. Just make sure that we're okay. And with the time in between and the age, I guess, and then the cyclone and floods, I was really mindful of being really calm in talking about what was happening and why we were leaving our house and that we were going to be safe. And it was such different contexts, too, because I was relying on my husband to really kept getting him to reassure me. And when he was not reassured us and the girls would pick that up, I'm like, oh, I need to be that person to be like, it's okay. Hey, no, it's fine. And try and come back to that really feeling safe. But it was tricky. And even now, I had a parent teacher interview the other day at school, and they're doing a narrative in my daughter's year five class and writing about bushfires. And in the interview, the teacher read out a paragraph that my daughter wrote about the bushfires. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I had no idea. It brought tears to my eyes. And then I sort of felt a bit, why wasn't I aware that was the narrative that or the lesson that they were focusing on? I remember after the fires, and we were able to go, there was one little cafe that opened up and had whatever they had. And we saw one of my daughter's school friends and they both started talking about how horrific the fires were and how scary and what was happening, and we hadn't been home at that time. And, yeah, I was like, oh, my gosh, should I step in? In this conversation? Are they okay to talk? I was like, oh, how do I navigate her experience? And my daughter's experience were so different. And, yeah, you sort of don't want to share that story of fear and anxiety.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: I want to talk about preparedness and that from what I understand, you and your family have the experience of having time to prepare and leave prior to an event and then also having an experience where you just kind of had to go straight away and didn't have much time. Can you talk about how those experiences differed and affected your family?
[00:07:22] Speaker C: So with the fires, there was a lot of, you know, there was probably a few weeks leading up to, are they coming this way? Are they not? We knew we were surrounded by fires up and around surrounding areas. So it was always that question of, is it coming this way? Is it going to turn? And I was more so thinking, we'll be fine. I. The morning before we left for the fires, my husband had work and we were actually packing to move to Queensland. So in that time, I was like, just trying to get things organized, pack the house down, get everything packed and for storage. And my husband's like, don't forget to go and stock up because if something happens, the supermarkets might be open. And I was like, yeah, yeah. And I just went about my day and he got home and he's like, how'd you go? You know, did you get water and things? And I was like, no, I'll go tomorrow. And he's like, yeah, are you kidding? Like, the fires could be coming through. And I'm like, yeah, but I don't think they will. And so I didn't prepare at all. I remember our neighbors were incredible and they're like, you know, you need to prepare and get a little pack for the girls. And I was like, yeah, no, it'll be fine. And I think I was very much in denial. And I talked to my then six year old about, if we do have to leave the house, is there anything special you want to take? Which, you know, we were packing up to move anyway, so she had a little packs that she wanted in the car and teddies and things. I did not even think about nappies. I did not think about water. Nothing. And then I remember later that night, we put the girls to bed and went and sat outside, and I was like, what's falling on the car? And it was embers falling on the car. And I was like, oh, my God. And fire trucks going up and down. And then it was only a few hours later, fire trucks coming through and it's like, you're going to have to leave, you know, leave now or stay. You're done. And I was like, far out. Like, it just seemed to go really quick from that point of night time to early hours of the morning. Like, get out. So I was really unprepared, and I'll never leave that down. Any flood or cyclone kids, my husband's all over it. Yeah. When we went to evacuate, I basically. Oh, well, I know I had always. Just after Christmas, you get those hot cross buns in the supermarket, and my kids love hot cross buns. So I had two packets of hot cross buns in the cardinal and I was like, oh, well, that'll do. That's fine. We'll jump in the car and we'll go. The cyclone came previously and we had a lot of warning and build up. And because we're fairly new to Queensland, we have had those cycling preparation times. We've gone to the information sessions, so we were really well prepared in charging up power sources, had lots of water, had a tub full of food, ready to go clothes, etcetera. But one thing I, again, did not remember was, what did the girls want? What did they need? So it was a last minute scramble to get out the door with that.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Do you feel like in the moments where you felt a bit more prepared, that that helped your children during the disaster and perhaps immediately after, like, do you think being prepared can help in the processes versus when you weren't prepared and how they felt after?
[00:10:35] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think they felt like they had a part to play in. Okay, so your job is to get the guinea pigs and your job is to make sure we've got the dog food and the leash or something. So they felt really in control of what was happening, rather than just like, quick, get in the car, off we go. And. But it was interesting with the cyclone and flood, so we were really prepared for the cyclone and voluntarily left and came back after the cyclone sort of fizzled through and unpacked everything. Absolutely everything, and then the flood came, so we weren't quite prepared. No one knew the flood was coming. It was just ridiculous. But the girls, I think, really knowing that planning and prep from the Cyclone prep were like, right, I need this, this and this, you know, and you look at the things that you've got and you're like, how funny. I didn't actually have a change of clothes, but I had, you know, hairbrush and toothbrush and things that probably didn't matter. I needed dry clothes.
So, yeah, it's interesting, but I think the actual preparation and going to the show and the SES have a stall and you get a little free power bank and have a talk and that, the girls found really, they loved it.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: And what other supports, like, after the events, were there for your family?
[00:11:52] Speaker C: Yeah. So with the fires, we. As soon as the roads opened up, so we left for the fire and then, which actually, we went to go to the evacuation center, but along the roads, which were backed up with traffic, someone said, the evacuation center is filling with smoke. We can't go there. And right at that time, right before the phones went down, my friend rang and said, have you still got my keys to my apartment? Go to my apartment. And I was like, oh, my gosh, thank you. So I went to her apartment, which was right on the water, so really great place to be. And then the power went out, town went black, digressed. But after the fires, we went back to our house. Luckily, like, only a part of our property was burnt. We didn't lose our house, neighbors lost houses, but we packed up everything, house all sorted, ended up leaving it furnished for fire victims instead of putting everything in storage and drove out of town. So it was twelve days after the fires and we moved to Queensland and I had to start work. I actually delayed my work start date because we couldn't leave. Like, there was no way out of town. So literally the day the roads opened was when we drove out of town. So there was a lot of fire recovery, there was a lot of investment in town, there was a lot of activities and community gatherings and connections, but we weren't a part of any of that. And at the time I remember saying to my husband like, this is good because I don't want the girls to hear people's trauma stories. I don't want them to go to school. Every kid at school had a story and I was like, this is good. The girls won't hear it. They have their story and we can talk through that with them. But looking back now, I'm like, oh, that actually wasn't ideal. We really needed them to go and have that shared experience. And it wasn't until a couple of years later that I realized that they were so impacted. And I was thinking, oh, well, we're out of that. We're safe. We don't need to think about that anymore. And I know there was a lot of investment in bushfire recovery. I think that's where all the lesson plans came out for schools to go over narratives on bushfires and artworks and stuff. You said at so many schools now floods, it just seemed to be business as usual. Like, I don't. Some people talked whenever we say where we live, people like, oh, how'd you go with the flood? Because our little town was really impacted. But yeah, I know there was a lot of community supports in our little village and it's still going today, but even then I haven't connected with people other than maybe a couple of neighbors to talk through all the floods. And the kids definitely haven't. They've got a couple of friends who were pretty impacted and maybe just had a bit of conversation, but there's been no sort of connecting with supports that are there, like recovery centers. So it seemed to be the supports that are there for the extreme and the immediate needs, whereas out of my own sort of experiences. I'm like, oh, we should probably see a counsellor. So organized, you know, just paying for ourselves to see a counsellor.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: And I wanted to ask about that. What signs can a parent look out for in their child to notice or see that maybe they're nothing processing or having difficulties processing and coping with the events. What signs do you think parents can look out for?
[00:15:05] Speaker C: I didn't even put two and two together and I felt so awful about that. I was having a conversation with a friend who I was saying, I just. My kids won't even go the toilet on their own. I'll go in the kitchen and they'll stand next to me, I'll walk into the lounge room, they'll come with me. They will not sleep in their own room. They just want to be around me all the time. They want to know everything. I'm like, I just can't cope anymore. Like, what is it with kids? And then the conversation came to, you think this could have been an impact of the fires and knowing research around trauma impacts and exposure to natural disasters, this is actually similar behaviors. And I was like, wow. And then I thought back and I thought it has been literally from that point of leaving and evacuating from the fires and that whole experience, always wanting to know where we are, always not wanting to. Like, we live in a pretty tiny house, but you can guarantee if they don't have eye contact, they are seeking us out. If we're outside at a playground or on the beach, they'll go forever. And I was like, why do you feel safe in an environment where it is so expansive, but in our home you're not? And I guess they couldn't verbalize in a way, but it was like, we just want to know where you are, what you're doing, which when you're talking.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: About it now, sounds so simple and you understand it, but when you yourself are living in the moment and you are trying to, I guess, support your family and support yourself, and it may take a while to, I guess, notice that the behaviors in your children have changed and then start asking the questions why? How do you think other adults in children's lives who have experienced disasters can support them? Like, I'm thinking teachers and how can they keep the well being of children in mind in the long term after a disaster?
[00:16:50] Speaker C: I think it is having that understanding. Like I say to most of our kids, teachers and people like they have experienced, particularly this year, they have been through the fires and now with the floods, so please be mindful of that. And I just say, like, it's their wellbeing and their connectedness and attachment is my priority. I don't mind if there's learning issues or things going on, we'll address that. We can get support, extra tuition, whatever. The most important thing is that they feel safe and connected and educators like, I'm really passionate about helping people understand that behaviour is a language that we as adults just need to translate and it's just so important. My little one, her behaviors are really hyper and I thought that's just who she is. But then talking to other people down south who had similar age kids and similar experience, their kids are hyper and she's really struggling to engage with sitting down in calm space and reading and learning and, you know, she'll do it and she wants to, but her behaviors are all really big and make sure, you know I'm here. And whereas I want people to understand that as an adult in their life, they need to translate their behavior into what are they really trying to say, and please work on yourself so you're grounded and centered and be fully present. I just. I see so many adults that are so vacant in their engagement with young people because they're really thinking about their busy. And I just think if you're with and around kids, particularly kids impacted by natural disaster and any sort of trauma impacts, that we need to be so focused on that young person as that co regulator, as that grounding source.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: I do want to talk about you, like, as a parent as well. And after such an incredibly stressful event or events such as a disaster, do you think it's important for parents to have self compassion? Because things may not always go the way that they thought it was going to go, or you may not have behaved in a moment the way that you wanted to, on reflection. So how important do you think is self compassion so important?
[00:19:02] Speaker C: I had intense guilt and shame not preparing for the fires. I had no idea there'll be two weeks where we couldn't even get food. They helicoptered army in to bring food in and here I was with two packets of hot cross buns. So I felt awful. And then I, at that point, realized it wasn't helping my girls even into the feelings of, I need time for myself to process what's happening. At the point of the fires, I thought I'd lost my husband. The whole town was black and the only red you could see was across where our property was. So I was like, well, that's it, he's gone. So I had that panic and I know that impacted on the girls. And then I was trying to hide it, but you can't hide it. And they pick up more than just what you're saying. They pick up on what you're doing, which was a big anxiety attack. And then. So I felt really bad about that. So in reading, I read a book, Dan Siegel's book, on the whole brain child, and I gave. First chapter was the best example. It's like, just talk about and help retell the story and talk about after it. So I was like, yeah, I really didn't cope then. I really didn't go well then. And then I had to take times to breathe again. And so I wanted to model and show my kids that, but in turn, it was actually showing me it's okay. And it's actually really important for me to be kind to myself because that's what my kids are seeing. And that particularly was really conscious in the time of the floods where I was panicking. But I was like, hey, yeah, I'm feeling worried, but I know we'll be safe, and we've just got to breathe, and we're going to be okay. We'll stick together.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: I want to talk about. We know that disasters can reveal struggles, but they can also teach us a lot about strengths and skills. And I was just wondering, can you share some of the strengths and skills your family have found?
[00:20:54] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. Communication, clearly communicating and understanding when we're not coming from a place of kindness in that communication, that repair of, you know, I was experiencing. I was stressed. I was freaking out. Like, I'm sorry I said that. And that healing conversation as well. And communication and definitely understanding differences and how different we cope with things. We're definitely such a close family. Super close, like, and have a really good way of always talking about our feelings of safe and being safe. And that also the strength of learning from our kids as well. Like, they're strong and their hope and their resilience on experiences. So, yeah, like, even watching my little one after the flood, she was just petrified. We had this poor little cow running down the road that had been washed all the way down the waterfalls, and it was alive. The rest were not. And there were a lot that were not. And she just flipped out. She put two and two together and thought, well, this cow is going to pop its head up through the toilet, and I'm in trouble here. And it took a long time. She wanted to just go outside to the toilet. I'm like, we need to fix this and support this. And we went to a counsellor and talked with her and my little one, through sand play therapy, was processing it and working on it. And she is so brave now and no dramas at all, but her older sister, whenever she's struggling and it could be something that appears even the slightest struggle, she goes through the strategies with her that she's learned and teaches her. Like, it's okay. You've got to talk to yourself and tell yourself it's okay. And just try counting. Count in for five and out for five. And breathe in and out. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, you're amazing.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Speaking of your children. So before we had this podcast interview, we sent you a question to ask your children. And I guess because we do try as much as we can to incorporate the children's voice in our work. So I was wondering if you have a response to that question. I'll just read the question now. So Sania asked her children, what advice would you have for other adults listening today about what kids need to feel comfort and support during and after disaster?
[00:23:08] Speaker C: Yeah. So the initial response from the ten year old was power and iPad.
I was like, okay, that's important to you, having it charged up and things downloaded. And then we talked about what they needed in the difference of feeling and being safe. And they both agreed that they need to know their parents are okay. They need to know that mum's okay, dad's okay. They need to know that we're going to be okay. So, yeah, basically came down to that bit of a laugh about the Wi Fi and Internet and why can't it work? Like, I don't understand. And that's what we need, just to get through all the boring time. But, yeah, just knowing that we were there and their pets, particularly their pets, if we couldn't have taken pets either time, it would have been so traumatizing for them. So knowing that we have a plan as well, my ten year old said, it's good to plan. She loves so structured and organized, and I think maybe a part of that is because of her experiences, but knowing what we're going to do. Yeah, a bit of a fun conversation there, too. And you sometimes assume that you know what your kids need or how they're feeling. I remember saying to my little one, like, talking about this, well, how would I see if you felt safe? And she said, I'd be like this. And she stood up really strong. And I was like, how would I see if you felt I unsafe? And she put her fingers in her mouth and I was like, oh. And I said, actually, I've seen you doing that. She's like, yeah, that's when I'm unsafe. I just. And I hold my lip because I don't want it to go down. I was like, oh, so many times you see kids draw a picture with a frowny face, but she tries to stand strong and, yeah. So if I hadn't have asked her her voice, I wouldn't have known that. So that was really nice to hear.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: They have such an amazing way of explaining things so simply as well. I think sometimes as grown ups, we can overcomplicate it. But what an amazing example of behavior as a form of communication. Like, just her physicality, even, like, this is how I'm going to look. So, you know, next time. It's just amazing. Sanya, to families that have experienced disasters, what advice would you have for them as they try and find their way through that difficult time?
[00:25:24] Speaker C: Definitely the being kind and compassionate to self and allow yourself time to restore. I had no idea just how important that is. And you sort of go, what's wrong with me? I'm feeling exhausted. Like, I feel slack. I should be doing this and that without realizing. It was only a few weeks ago that things had happened and I was really cognizant of that. After the floods, after the fires, I just got straight back into work. I was really busy environments and change of area, and I was exhausted. I was like, what's wrong with me? Oh, my gosh. After the floods, I was like, this was pretty full on. Let's just have some calm time. And I was exhausted. Yeah. And I did start to feel guilty, but then I'm like, no, no, it's okay. Rest and. Yeah, just learn and grow with each time. You can never be 100% prepared for anything that life throws at you, but you can definitely know for next time. And again and again, there's things that I didn't do in the fires, that I did in the floods, and there's a things that I probably would change if we ever had to prepare for anything again.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: I think that rest is so important because of the way we are in this country as well. It's kind of like you just get up and you get on with it and you keep going, and it's like, actually, the body needs time and it's okay to slow down and give you and your family that time.
[00:26:44] Speaker C: And I've seen people that haven't rested and neighbours and community, and it has an impact. You can feel it in them. You can see it in them. It's just so important.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: Sanya thank you so much for sharing your stories with us today and your advice and your experiences. It's just so amazing to have you here and hear about what you've learned and what we can kind of share with other families that are listening. Thank you so much.
[00:27:13] Speaker C: Beautiful. Thank you so much.
[00:27:18] Speaker A: Visit our website at www. Dot emergingminds for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging minds leads the National Workforce Centre for child mental Health. The centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the national support for Child and Youth Mental Health program.
